Why Do You Hate Justice, Stanford?

Posted by at 3:32PM

Daniel Barton just cannot believe the injustice.

A recent op-ed by A Man Who Graduated Over Twenty Years Ago, Daniel Barton, took obvious glee in excoriating sophomore Viviana Arcia and her support of the University’s decision to lower the standard of proof from “beyond a reasonable doubt” to “preponderance of evidence” for sexual assault cases. I can just hear the derisive laughter that only someone with a law degree can produce as he was writing this, and it makes me sad, because the journey toward making a just society is a slow and messy process and goobers like Mr. Barton aren’t making it any easier.

His sentiment is understandable, entirely understandable. After all, “innocent until proven guilty” is one of the most treasured phrases in America, followed by “beyond a reasonable doubt.” “I’d rather let a thousand guilty men go free than let one innocent man be punished” and all that. All very inspiring stuff that nobody wants to speak out against. When it comes to the issue of sexual assault though, things get a little bit thornier.

In most sexual assault cases, there’s pretty much only one piece of evidence that proves guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt: bruises. Often times, rapists aren’t so courteous. So it’s her word against his, in a society that is none too afraid to call women lying bitches when they act in ways that are displeasing to powerful men, and in a society where stories about attempted rape are auto-tuned and gleefully offered up as the latest Internet meme. For sexual assault victims that aren’t blonde-haired, blue-eyed, and still had their hymen in tact, the system’s kind of set up against them. But none of that matters because “INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.” I’m pretty sure the people who developed that concept never had to worry about being the victim of sexual assault. Even less likely had they thought about the difficulties of trying to bring such a case to court. Most writings and theories about law were just a bunch of old rich white dudes arguing over property, in a time when women were still considered property. That’s right, get ready kids cuz I’m about to drop it, our entire modern Western conception of justice is a product of phallogocentrism.

I don’t say this to fundamentally reject the justice system, but to remind Mr. Barton and the angry commenters below Arcia’s op-ed of the problems with treating any doctrine made by humans as infallible. We all love the Constitution and think it’s the most just document on the planet, but for the majority of the 19th century, the Constitution was used as the top defense for preserving slavery. Most people knew slavery was bad and even more wanted to get rid of it, but it was protected by the Constitution. The nation’s hands were tied. It had to keep slavery legal. The Constitution can’t be wrong, it’s the Constitution. It took 4 years of civil war before our nation could finally recognize that the Constitution was in fact wrong and thus needed to be changed (I’m pretty sure there are some Tea Party artards out there who have no problem with how this chapter of American history played out).

It’s the same principle here with the Standard of Proof. Thankfully, academia is always open to self-analysis and changing broad structures, like the Office of Judicial Affairs, even if it’s unpopular to do so. I mean, yeah, it may sound like you’re a freedom-hating angry feminist to attack the idea of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but William Lloyd Garrison was branded a lunatic America-hating insurrectionist when he advocated for the abolition of slavery and for full racial equality. Ultimately, if the system’s broken, you got to change it.

The old Standard of Proof was not working, it needed to be changed. If the new Standard of Proof bothers you, there’s an easy solution: don’t sexually assault people. Then you won’t have to deal with it. And dudes, don’t act like I’m talking crazy here, 6% of college-aged men will admit to it. If you carry the world view that false sexual assault allegations are commonplace, then don’t do anything that would make a woman want to file one against you. They don’t just come out of the blue. Think about cutting down on sex with blackout strangers. Maybe reduce the number of sexist insults you use whenever you get in an argument with a romantic attachment. Call your friends out when they do the same. We all have the same goals here, and those kinds of conversations are a much more worthwhile use of the public discourse than endless squabbling about numbers and breathy J.D.-empowered condescension.

Share

69 Responses to “Why Do You Hate Justice, Stanford?”

  1. Stanford Male ’09 says:

    There is a happy middle ground. “Clear and convincing” evidence is a standard that is lodged comfortably in the continuum between “preponderance” and “shadow of a doubt.” I think the big problem here is that 51% likelihood for an allegation that could not only get you expelled, but follow you for the rest of your life, is just too low. Sexual assault is bad, really, really bad. However, ruining someone’s life because you regret the drunken lay the night before is not the right answer.

    Take the middle ground. If “shadow of a doubt” is too high for Stanford’s tastes, then drop it to “clear and convincing,” a standard often described in law school as ~70%. That seems to be a happy medium, but maybe that’s just me.

  2. Cel says:

    “If you carry the world view that false sexual assault allegations are commonplace, then don’t do anything that would make a woman want to file one against you. They don’t just come out of the blue. Think about cutting down on sex with blackout strangers.”

    Peter, I couldn’t agree more.

    “If you carry the world view that sexual assaults are commonplace, then don’t do anything that would make it happen to you. They don’t just come out of the blue. Think about cutting down on sex with blackout strangers.”

    Oh wait, suddenly now it sounds like victim-blaming language. Because it is.

    Your words are disgusting, Peter, and no different from those who blame women for being raped, after all they should have known better than to pass out drunk at a party.

    Perhaps this man, who was expelled from UND, and was not re-instated EVEN AFTER THE POLICE FOUND THE GIRL MADE A FALSE REPORT, also deserved it?

    http://www.bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/article_8d777df8-485f-11e0-ac24-001cc4c03286.html

    Perhaps the men who are exonerated by DNA evidence after years in jail also deserved to be falsely convicted?

    As for your discussion on the standard of proof and the Constitution (it supports slavery!), that is ridiculous and irrelevant.

    This is the fact of the matter: Stanford thinks men should be expelled if there is a 51% chance they are guilty of sexual assault. Do you think 51% is a high enough chance, or not? Is it ok to ruin someone’s life based on a 51% chance they raped someone, or not?

    What has the Constitution to do with that? Nothing.

  3. Sam says:

    You should read this -> http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/04/college-feminists-morally-grotesque.html <- Peter before you start attacking the standard of proof. It contains (replete with sources something that Arcia's op-ed was lacking) an even more comprehensive explanation of why people objected to Arcia's op-ed.

  4. Re: Sam and Cel says:

    Wait a second, would making a false rape accusation on this campus be a fundamental standard violation? And don’t fundamental standard violations come with the possible penalty of being expelled? And isn’t the worst punishment a rapist can receive under our code expulsion? So in essence, wouldn’t a false accusation, if proven, possibly result in a similar punishment as raping someone under our code?

    I’m in favor of making false rape reporting a criminal act, but its not the same as raping someone.

    Also, there is some really shady things that have happened to women on college campuses who actually reported their rapes, for example:

    http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=61065

  5. Re: Sam and Cel says:

    Sorry, a few corrections, that link didn’t actually go into the story, but suffice it to say that women all around the country are not taken seriously on college campuses. In many cases there is often no investigation that occurs. Also, its really not that hard to not put yourself in a situation where false accusations are likely, one way is stop having random hook-ups.

  6. Cel says:

    Not sure what you mean by a fundamental standard violation.

    But whatever you call it, then I do believe someone who is proven to have made a false claim of rape should be expelled. Not if they are simply unable to prove a rape happened, but if they are proven to be lying (for example, video evidence showing they lied, them being record on hidden camera bragging to a friend about lying, or other concrete evidence).

    You’re right, false rape reporting isn’t the same as rape or sexual assault. But its effects can be just as harmful, if not more so.

  7. Cel says:

    “In many cases there is often no investigation that occurs. ”

    That is a problem, but how is that fixed by changing the proof standard to 51% for punishment?

    “Also, its really not that hard to not put yourself in a situation where false accusations are likely, one way is stop having random hook-ups.”

    Victim-blaming language. Would you kindly tell that good advice to people so they may avoid being sexually assaulted.

    Further, there are many instances of men being falsely accused in situations not involving random hook-ups.

  8. Re: Cel says:

    “You’re right, false rape reporting isn’t the same as rape or sexual assault. But its effects can be just as harmful, if not more so.”

    No, no they can’t. There is NO EQUIVALENCE between false reporting of rape and rape. False reporting of rape should be a criminal offense and a fundamental violation, but it is NOT THE SAME THING A RAPING SOMEONE. That is a absurd and offensive position to take.

    A fundamental standard violation is a part of Stanford’s Legal Code, and committing a fundamental standard violation would get you placed in legal proceedings, the same legal proceedings that preside over sexual assault. This is how we charge these kinds of crimes on campus. It is already “illegal” according to our code to falsely report rape. It already carries a potentially serious sentence. Rape is also tried over our judicial system as a fundamental standard violation and it is through this system that people are expelled for rape.

  9. Wow says:

    Seriously suggesting that people should be sentenced to JAIL time without evidence that is beyond a reasonable doubt?
    Have you noticed that men are already convicted without a preponderance of evidence, and that false accusations are not treated as crimes nor violations of university policy.

    Have you also noticed that men raped by women are flat out ignored by police, courts, and society. It is extremely common for women on man rape to be considered by the rapist to have been consensual even when non consent was explicitly stated.

    Rape is a terrible thing, and gray area rape is still a terrible thing. But false rape accusations ARE common, and there are many cases to prove that.
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110120172840AAMrrTv
    That page has a very well written well sourced blurb

  10. Jake says:

    “No, no they can’t. There is NO EQUIVALENCE between false reporting of rape and rape. False reporting of rape should be a criminal offense and a fundamental violation, but it is NOT THE SAME THING A RAPING SOMEONE. That is a absurd and offensive position to take.”

    It’s not the same as raping someone, it’s often objectively worse. (Unless you think a woman getting forced in to sex is somehow inherently worse than a man getting forcibly sodomized in a prison cell for several years)

    False rape allegations can and have cost people their friends, their job, their career prospects, and even years of their lives. In jail, rapists are the lowest of the low, and are the first to be targeted for (you guessed it) rape. A false allegation can cause a man to be stripped, forced to undergo DNA and STD tests (that involves a biopsy of the penis, in case you were wondering). That’s not the worst part, though. A false allegation can allow a school to expel, blacklist and permanently scar the academic and employment-relevant information the accused takes with them for the rest of their life, and even if the rape charges are overturned in court and the accuser is charged with a false rape allegation, the school is not obligated to go back on its decision.

    This is a joke, a complete violation of human rights, and a shot in the face to anyone who thinks the United States can consider itself a just nation. The writer of this article criticises people for engaging in their cloistered philosophy, but he carefully avoids acknowledging that he wants more innocent young men to have their lives permanently ruined to get all of the good things he’s talking about. Maybe beyond a reasonable doubt isn’t the way to go, but how about growing a pair and talking about the implications of what your own philosophical meandering lead you to.

  11. Data says:

    http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

  12. Data says:

    The chances of being raped as a woman are astronomically higher then the number of men being falsely accused of rape. The chances of doing hard jail time are even lower. The conviction rate for rapes that are reported (which is far below the actual number of rapes), are only like 7 percent (compared to 34 percent of all crimes). I find it very difficult to believe given our history in regards to rape that there are that many men in prison for rape that don’t deserve to be there.

    On the other hand one third of women are sexually assaulted, and at least a fourth of women on college campuses are sexually assaulted. According to the data that I just posted, there are a small percentage of guys who are repeat or first time offenders (anywhere from 6-12%), and this small percentage is the group that is committing a large number of rapes. Realistically, its very unlikely that IF YOU RAPE SOMEONE, YOU WILL BE BROUGHT FORWARD, much less falsely accused of rape. And false accusations, as well as true accusations ability aren’t leading to many convictions anyway, so I don’t find any of these “men are suffering”, posts to be particularly compelling. Arguing that is is wrong to lower the stanford of proof is one thing, arguing that rape and false reporting of rape are equivalent, however is another. You can’t possibly be expected to be taken seriously.

    No one is doing jail time, Jake. This isn’t the criminal court’s standard of proof. This is a university, and the worst possible punishment that can be meted out is expulsion for rape under the policy. I’m pretty sure that getting expelled from school is not the same thing as being raped.

  13. Sara says:

    Obviously Stanford has a vested interest in lying to its student body to appease the feminist thugs trying to rule America through political correctness and censorship: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_2LpLhOsc4

  14. Sam says:

    @Data:
    When it comes to the feminist studies on the topic of stats, I think it’s wise to look to the feminists who have abandoned feminism as a result of the intellectual dishonesty around this specific topic:

    Christina Sommers on sexual assault stats -> http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html
    Cathy Young on sexual assault stats -> http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2011/04/_by_cathy_young_1.html

    Also, here is a great article on false rape accusation stats -> http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

  15. Jake says:

    http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/opinion/the-radical-middle/27667–one-in-one-thousand-eight-hundred-seventy-seven

    If you’re going to quote data from a feminist site that has a declared political intent, you’re probably off-base. Try doing a cursory search and it’s fairly easy to see how often the “1 in 4″ lie is debunked. Here’s another list of sources discussing many of the myths associated with “rape culture,” some of which you’ve repeated here: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/p/informative-sources.html. You can peruse the collection of false rape cases if you’re still skeptical about the fact that real people do suffer from the actions of false accusers.

    And yeah, explusion is the worst thing that’s going to happen due to the change of rules. That means that more innocent men will be expelled from colleges as well as more rapists. Being expelled for sexual assault ruins your chances of getting in to a good college, finishing a degree, doing graduate work, and getting a job in the field you were studying. I know, for a fact, that I will be unable to get a job in my chosen field if I don’t successfully pursue a master’s degree. So yeah. Any girl I sleep with has the power to permanently destroy my potential to earn a decent income, start a family, and generally live a good life, if her word is just a little bit more valued than mine in a court that isn’t presided over by a real judge. Sexual assault is a criminal offense, and colleges shouldn’t be passing judgment that contradicts criminal courts anyways.

    Furthermore, I believe you misinterpreted a large section of my comment, Data, it was in response to someone saying that the crimes of rape and false reporting should not be compared. The crimes, not the crimes as they related to this particular issue. People convicted of sex crimes often get raped in prisons, that’s a fact. Perverting justice in a way that can lead (and ultimately has led) to a prison sentence is just as vile and reprehensible as raping someone. They both include a complete lack of humanity, the subjugation of someone else’s rights and potentially permanent mental trauma. I can’t see a reason why NOT to compare the two.

  16. Data says:

    The data quoted in my second post IS NOT from the feminist site. Its widely reported data from several sources, and are in fact commonly used statistics. And if you are going to rebut just the article I posted and then post an agenda producing blog defending your position seems a little ridiculous. Jake, have you been raped? Do you have any idea what that is like. People doing jail time for sex crimes are generally guilty, false convictions, in fact any conviction for rape is quite rare, so no, I don’t think committing a sex crime and then being sexually assaulted is the same thing as raping someone. I don’t think they should be assaulted in prison, but I also still don’t think you can compare them. Getting expelled is certainly not the same thing as being raped. Of the many women I know at least a quarter to a third have been sexually assaulted. Of the many men I know, none of have been falsely accused of rape. In fact, I know more men who have been sexually assaulted by men than have been accused of rape.

  17. Data says:

    From several different sources, and off a 30 second google search:

    http://www.rainn.org/statistics

    http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32369

    http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml

    I think that people who falsely accuse someone of rape should be punished. Under the policy at Stanford (the one in which you are commenting on) that is already something that can happen. In fact the punishment for false accusations is the same as it would be for rape, leading up to, and possibly including expulsion.

  18. Jake says:

    For someone called “data”, your “evidence” is sure anecdotal. I expected more from people attending a decent college, but apparently that’s just not how it works.

    Try reading the sources instead of the URLs, I at least gave yours a read.

  19. Re: Jake says:

    You have NO READING comprehension. My point was not that my sources were authoritative, they are commonly cited statistics from national organizations. And No, I wasn’t including my anecdotal evidence as DATA, the data is the data that has already been widely reported from national justice organizations. The anecdotal commentary was not data, it was anecdotes.

  20. Sam says:

    @Data: Except if you bring a case against someone for making a false accusation they get a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard of proof because that is the standard applied to everything except sexual assault.

    The 60% underreporting RAINN stats are inconsistent with the 1-in-5 claim as demonstrated by the Post-Gazette study linked by another poster (if you are going to pick and choose stats at least make the feminist studies you cherrypick consistent with each other). Furthermore, it is impossible to measure the extent to which something is underreported. You don’t know if it was a rape if it hasn’t been reported and investigated. Those stats gathered were on the basis of the KOSS and CSA studies which marked down women as raped who said they actually had not been raped in any way. It also assumes that of the women who claimed to have been raped that all were truthful when studies put the rate of false reporting between 2-90% with stats being uniformly distributed (many around 40%) I’ll cite the Young article:

    “However, a close look at the CSA Study’s findings raises some serious questions about its reliability. First of all, the vast majority of the incidents it uncovered involved what the study termed “incapacitation” by alcohol (or, rarely, drugs): 14 percent of female respondents reported such an experience while in college, compared to six percent who reported sexual assault by physical force.
    Yet the question measuring incapacitation was framed ambiguously enough that it could have netted many “gray area” cases: “Has someone had sexual contact with you when you were unable to provide consent or stop what was happening because you were passed out, drugged, drunk, incapacitated, or asleep?” Does “unable to provide consent or stop” refer to actual incapacitation – given as only one option in the question – or impaired judgment? An alleged assailant would be unlikely to get a break by claiming he was unable to stop because he was drunk.

    Not surprisingly, three-quarters of the female students in this category did not label their experience as rape. (Even when penetration was involved, only 37 percent of the women the study classified as victims of rape by incapacitation believed they had been raped.) Two-thirds said they did not report the incident to the authorities because they didn’t think it was serious enough. Interestingly, only two percent reported having suffered emotional or psychological injury – a figure so low that the authors felt compelled to include a footnote asserting that the actual incidence of such trauma was undoubtedly far higher.

    The CSA Study’s estimate of sexual assault by physical force is somewhat problematic as well – particularly for attempted sexual assaults, which account for nearly two-thirds of the total. Women were asked if anyone had ever had or attempted to have sexual contact with them by using force or threat, defined as “someone holding you down with his or her body weight, pinning your arms, hitting or kicking you, or using or threatening to use a weapon.” Suppose that, during a make-out session, the man tries to initiate sex by rolling on top of the woman, with his weight keeping her from moving away – but once she tells him to stop, he complies. Would this count as attempted sexual assault? ”

    To see a debunking of the Koss study look no further than the Christine Sommers study linked to above:

    “He noticed, for example, that Koss and her colleagues counted as victims of rape any respondent who answered “yes” to the question “Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?” That opened the door wide to regarding as a rape victim anyone who regretted her liaison of the previous night. If your date mixes a pitcher of margaritas and encourages you to drink with him and you accept a drink, have you been “administered” an intoxicant, and has your judgment been impaired? Certainly, if you pass out and are molested, one would call it rape. But if you drink and, while intoxicated, engage in sex that you later come to regret, have you been raped? Koss does not address these questions specifically, she merely counts your date as a rapist and you as a rape statistic if you drank with your date and regret having had sex with him. As Gilbert points out, the question, as Koss posed it, is far too ambiguous”

  21. Cel says:

    The effects of a false rape report can be as bad or worse than being raped. Victims of false claims have committed suicide. They have been killed by people that were deceived by the liar. They have lost their jobs, their entire futures. They have been jailed for years and raped in jail. They have received death threats, been subject to harassment.

    “The chances of being raped as a woman are astronomically higher then the number of men being falsely accused of rape. ”

    Yes, and so what? How is this relevant to the discussion?

    Is it ok for men to be punished for rape if there is a 51% chance they did it? Yes or no, answer the question.

    “I find it very difficult to believe given our history in regards to rape that there are that many men in prison for rape that don’t deserve to be there.”

    Then prepare to believe. This is a concrete and undeniable fact that proves that.

    “commencing in 1989 in cases of rape and rape-murder where there has already been either an arrest or an indictment, the FBI has conducted large numbers of DNA tests “to confirm or exclude the person. In 25 percent of the cases where they can get a result, they excluded the primary suspect”

    http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v33-issue3/greer.pdf

  22. Jay Hammers says:

    False: “That’s right, get ready kids cuz I’m about to drop it, our entire modern Western conception of justice is a product of phallogocentrism.”

    A University of Georgia study found substantial disparity in criminal sentencing men and women received “after controlling for extensive criminological, demographic, and socioeconomic variables”. The study found that “blacks and males are… less likely to get no prison term when that option is available; less likely to receive downward departures [from the guidelines]; and more likely to receive upward adjustments and, conditioned on having a downward departure, receive smaller reductions than whites and females”.

    http://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing.pdf

    QED.

  23. Jay Hammers says:

    Our entire western culture is gynocentric: http://gynotheory.blogspot.com/2011/01/staring-out-from-abyss.html

    Regarding the assertion that men should avoid situations where false rape allegations might occur, that’s good advice, much like it’s good advice for women to not walk around scantily clad in bad neighborhoods if they’d like to avoid being raped. Right?

    For guys to avoid a false rape allegation, I suggest they educate themselves on the true nature of women by looking into Game theory and evolutionary psychology. This will allow young men to avoid the really toxic women out there, while also providing them the advantage in the sexual marketplace of not “being creepy,” which is the crime of not turning a woman on sexually. Having no game leads to false rape accusations. You can get some here: http://approachanxiety.com/

  24. Jack says:

    “If you carry the world view that false sexual assault allegations are commonplace, then don’t do anything that would make a woman want to file one against you.”

    Ok, fine. Don’t like the lowering of the standard of evidence, don’t commit sexual assault or do anything that would bring an accusation on yourself…you know, like looking at a white woman the wrong way.

    Seriously, dude, as a black guy you should know how often people get accused of stuff they never did. To advocate eroding one of the fundamental protections against that sort of thing makes me sick.

  25. Another viewpoint says:

    I think this article does a reasonable, and clear explanation of how this works on the Stanford campus, which many commentators seem to be unaware of. I just want to add that expulsion, even for something as serious as sexual assault is extremely rare on this campus, for those of you who do not know the campus well.

    The article is here: http://stanfordreview.org/article/editorial-new-standard-of-proof-better-but-still-needs-work

    I’d also like to provide some clarity on the fundamental standard issue. Rape is prosecuted under our legal code (something another commentator already pointed out), in fact anything that would result in expulsion, suspension or any forms for punishment at the university is prosecuted under this legal system. That includes, but is not limited to: causing bodily harm to another student, harassment, cheating etc. Under this system, false accusations of rape could be charged with a fundamental standard violation. Even under instances of clear domestic violence expulsion is extremely unlikely to happen, a more likely outcome would involve a temporary suspension from campus, and stipulations such as counseling before the offender could return to the campus.

    I just wanted to provide some context, because I think Stanford is an unusual case and certainly not representative of the American legal code in general. Because of the system’s design, there are very few incentives to falsely accuse someone of rape. In fact the stigma attached to being a victim of sexual violence is a common issue that many people on this campus have already cited. I don’t see what a Stanford women has to gain by falsely accusing someone of rape under our system, which is not to say that its never happened, but it is certainly not the same thing as custody cases, or domestic issues in the legal code. I just thought it would be helpful for this discussion to have some context.

  26. Cel says:

    “Because of the system’s design, there are very few incentives to falsely accuse someone of rape.”

    Then you don’t know how false accusations work.

    What incentive does someone have to commit rape? Remember, it’s not about sex, it’s about power.

    Women will make false rape accusations because they are angry, or bored, as an excuse for cheating, because they are late for work, to explain some other crime like a DUI or underage drinking, or any other reason under the sun. Only a tiny minority of women will do such things, of course.

    As for stigma attached to being a victim of rape, please. First of all, accusers are given anonymity in university proceedings. Second, one might look at the numerous cases of serial false rape accusers. Interesting how all of these women were able to overcome the “stigma” attached, hmm?

    To view all these cases, go to http://www.falserapesociety.blogspot.com (type in “serial” in the search bar), and read the entries.

  27. Shocked says:

    This comment thread is one of the most sickeningly misogynistic things I’ve read in a long time.

    Being falsely accused of rape is worse than being raped?

    Telling men to avoid accusations by ceasing to take advantage of drunk girls is “victim blaming”?

    Raped men are “forcibly sodomized” while raped women are merely “forced into sex”?

    Women make false rape accusations “because they are late for work”?

    There is no arguing with this kind of paranoid hatred, so I won’t even try. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.

  28. V10 says:

    Consider the case of Julian Assange, of Wikileaks fame. Had ongoing intimate relations with 2 different women at the same time (morally deplorable, yes, but not illegal). Isn’t it strange how the two of them suddenly remembered that Assange raped them, and that their repressed memories were only jogged once they found out about each other? Funny thing, the mind… I’m sure some misogynist will advance the preposterous notion that they are in some way feeling scorned and vindictive. More pathetic myths. It’s already been scientifically proven that women are completely incapable of uttering an untruth.

    Does the name ‘Crystal Mangum’ ring any bells? She’s back in the news, talk about timing.

    Why not simply make it illegal for males to attend colleges and universities completely, and ban them from campus grounds on pain of being shot on sight by campus security? Hurray! No more rape! And if you disagree with this proposal, you’re worse than Hitler. And probably a rapist, too.

  29. Cel says:

    “Being falsely accused of rape is worse than being raped?”

    No one has said that it is always worse, only that it can be worse. The effects of being falsely accused have already been discussed and include prison sentences and being raped in prison. That’s a fact, and obviously that is worse than being raped.

    “Telling men to avoid accusations by ceasing to take advantage of drunk girls is “victim blaming”?”

    First of all, “ceasing to take advantage of drunk girls” is not a foolproof way to avoid false accusations. Second, men who have been falsely accused of rape are victims of a crime, so telling them that “all you need to do is avoid drunk girls” is literally victim blaming.

    “Raped men are “forcibly sodomized” while raped women are merely “forced into sex”?”

    You have a point that that doesn’t make much sense, however the wording choice here is not relevant to the argument.

    “Women make false rape accusations “because they are late for work”?”

    Lo and behold, here is one woman who did just that, and was proven to be lying with video evidence:

    http://www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-2959648-detail/article.html

    That’s only one woman you say?

    Here’s a group of FOUR women who lied about rape to avoid paying cab fare, and again proven to be lying with video evidence:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2009/05/15/edmonton-cab-driver-lawsuit.html

    Those are only two examples you say?

    Here’s a link to stories of women lying about rape for the most trivial reasons, because they were bored, because they wanted a day off work, because they were mad at their boyfriends for breaking up with them, etc. etc.

    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2010/11/women-tells-rape-lie-because-she-was.html

    Sorry, it’s not paranoid hatred if you can prove it.

  30. Slice says:

    Another viewpoint and Shocked are the two most coherent responses to this post and its replies. If any of the rape apologist/misogynist commenters are from Stanford, we clearly have a long way to go on our own campus.

    I’m a little afraid to wade into this. It’s like watching Fox News.

  31. Human-Stupidity.com says:

    @Peter (the author) said
    >“innocent until proven guilty.” I’m pretty sure the people who developed that concept never had to worry about being the victim of sexual assault. Even less likely had they thought about the difficulties of trying to bring such a case to court.

    @Peter, I am sure the people who developed that concept never had to worry about being a victim of bullies, gang bangers, robbers, murderers, thieves, embezzlers, extortionists, drug dealers, arsonists. Even less likely had they thought about the difficulties of trying to bring such a case to court.

    @Peter, we can solve all legal crime problems if we remove the presumption of innocence. How many known mobsters are free for lack of proof. Let us remove all due process to arrest and jail all criminals. Well, there will be some innocent jailed, but getting all murderers, bank robbers, etc is a worthy goal.

  32. Human-Stupidity.com says:

    @Jay Hammers: having game also leads to false rape accusations. By the women you seduced in the eventing that regret the sex in the morning. Men can’t win. Only abstinence in a Tibetan monastery can help. But if you read the http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/this still can subject you to random accusations, revenge accusations.

  33. Human-Stupidity.com says:

    @Shocked:

    You are just playing with words and semantics. A typical feminist ploy:
    http://human-stupidity.com/irrationality/stupid-dogma/social-rules-habits/manipulate-language

    The focus is not if it is rape or sodomy. The issue is 20 minutes vs. 20 years of rape.
    The issue is that being raped once, in a typical college setting, is probably better then being in 10 years of sex slavery and rape to brutal prison gangs, due to a false rape accusation.

    Furthermore, the typical college rape is a drunk girl that got herself drunk out of her own will and on purpose, to overcome her shyness. She still was quite conscious when she agreed to sex, but was sorry the next day and cried “rape”

    I doubt that they typical college rape is the forcible type, where a girl gets dragged into the woods, threatened with a knife and forced against her resistance.

    http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/teenage-sexuality/when-rape-is-not-rape

    I

  34. Human-Stupidity.com says:

    @Another viewpoint SAID:
    >In fact the stigma attached to being a victim of sexual violence is a common issue that many people on this campus have already cited. I don’t see what a Stanford women has to gain by falsely accusing someone of rape under our system, which is not to say that its never happened, but it is certainly not the same thing as custody cases, or domestic issues in the legal code. I just thought it would be helpful for this discussion to have some context.

    @Another viewpoint: I will help you:

    1) Boyfriend just caught her red-handed after an orgy. Scream Rape to clean your reputation. Hofstra University. Is Stanford so much better?

    http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/mens-rights-feminism/hofstra-false-rape-accusation-danmell-ndonye

    2) Angry that he does not call. It was only a one night stand for him. What a pig!
    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/ has hundreds of examples

    3) Tipsy last night. Sorry for having gone to bed with that creep. Cry Rape!

    4) Not enough money to pay taxi fare (or angry at taxi driver behavior)
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3149002.ece
    http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/090610/new_704980803.shtml
    http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/social-rules-habits/manipulate-language/rape-is-rape-is-rape-is-a-lie-joe-biden-20-different-types-of-rape

    The woman later recanted her story about the alleged rape when she learned that a surveillance camera mounted in the taxi had recorded the couple leaving the vehicle without paying. The cab driver is now demanding compensation http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2008/10/woman-lies-about-rape-to-avoid-paying.html

    Hundreds of more examples at http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com

  35. Manhater says:

    @Shocked
    (quote)
    “Women make false rape accusations “because they are late for work”?
    There is no arguing with this kind of paranoid hatred, so I won’t even try. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.”
    (/quote)

    Since you don’t have the foresight to use google to confirm/debunk what he said before denying it, allow me.

    http://www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-2959648-detail/article.html
    http://www.chelmsfordweeklynews.co.uk/news/8714013.Second_false_rape_claim_woman_jailed

    Summary: Woman has consensual sex, is late for work while already on thin ice for being late in the past, uses rape as an excuse to being late, boss demands proof, she proceeds to pervert the court of justice and ruin the lives of 3 men until caught, later blames her actions on her diet.

    on-her-diet

    Because you so blatantly denied a real thing, you at least owe it to me to read the rest of this post.

    Have you ever considered what it would be like to spend 20 years in jail only to live under a blacklist for the rest of your life, without evidence, because a woman claimed her diet made her irrational? Rape may be a horrible crime (forced sex rape, not feminist broken condom rape) but it doesn’t compare to 20 years in a male prison and a jobless life under a blacklist, let alone condemning multiple men to this fate.

    However at least she wasn’t a serial rape accuser, and if you would so kindly allow me to pull 3 examples out of my handy dandy false rape bag…

    Serial false rape accuser tried to destroy man’s life for not giving her a beer
    http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/crime/woman-said-man-raped-held-her-captive

    Fantasist ‘cry rape mother’ who wasted 7,000 police hours and cost taxpayers £300,000 is jailed for four years.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1100038/Fantasist-rape-mother-wasted-7-000-police-hours-cost-taxpayers-300-000-jailed.html?ITO=1490

    I’m sure someone must of already linked to falserapesociety and you’ve probably decided to not read it but never the less it is updated with new stories on false rape claims on a -daily- basis. The fact that feminists blatantly ignore these out of convenience or even support false rape claims after they’re proven false (how can you stay behind the duke lacrosse rape case woman even when she’s currently in jail for murder?) just goes to show why feminists are unreasonable bigots who should have no influence on law.

  36. Stanford alum says:

    Feminists typically have considerable influence on university disciplinary panels. The large majority of feminists proclaim that false reporting of rape by women is very rare. They throw often around a 2% figure that ultimately traces back to a Susan Brownmueller speech, without any good studies to back it up.

    “Culture of rape” feminists also claim that one of four or five girls will suffer either sexual assault or attempted sexual assault by the time they graduate. This is vastly, enormously inflated by methods will get to.

    However my point is this. Given these two prevalent messages on university campuses, despite the lack of good evidence for them, what will be the result of a 50.1 % preponderance of the evidence standard for date rape? Any time a guy can’t prove he didn’t have sexual contact with a woman or hasn’t video recorded it, it she makes an accusation, he’ll be expelled. Her word’s gonna be believed more than his.

    So if a guy has sex with a fellow student, he’s ENTIRELY at her mercy, despite not having committed date rape. Her word will be considered better than his about always in this environment. Because you know, girls don’t usually lie about these things.

    What are reasons she might lie about date rape?

    She’s afraid her gf’s will think she’s slutty otherwise. Her bf has gotten word and might otherwise break up with her. She was enthusiastic about having sex with him that night while tipsy with lowered inhibitions (which she got tipsy intentionally to lower and have more fun), but regrets it the next day. The guy doesn’t ask her out on follow up dates and become her bf, and she’s pissed at him, she thought she had a shot. She feels when completely sober the next day or week that he used her and he’s an ass and deserves to suffer. And on and on.

    No most Stanford and other girls won’t do these things most of the time. But they sometimes will under this new totally empowering of her, and totally disempowering of him. Given that guys about never report being raped by girls in this and other cultures, this standard is deeply discriminatory against men. It puts them totally at the after the fact mercy of any girl they have clearly consensual at the time sex with. That’s deeply wrong.

    See this for studies on the great frequency of false rape claims:

    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html

    See this for studies on the much lower than feminists often claim frequency of actual rape on college campuses:

    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/02/one-in-four-lie-demolished-once-and-for.html

  37. Oh come on, people says:

    “Furthermore, the typical college rape is a drunk girl that got herself drunk out of her own will and on purpose, to overcome her shyness. She still was quite conscious when she agreed to sex, but was sorry the next day and cried “rape.”"

    How can you possibly know how the “typical college rape” goes down? You can’t, but because you believe to your core that women are manipulative sluts, you find that you have the authority to make ridiculous, broad-sweeping claims like this one.

    Any men who believes that women only “cry rape” when they regret sex are men who can commit rape. So I would consider seriously reexamining your beliefs if you don’t want to end up on the receiving end of one of these “false” allegations.

  38. Cel says:

    “You can’t, but because you believe to your core that women are manipulative sluts, you find that you have the authority to make ridiculous, broad-sweeping claims like this one. ”

    Most wome are not, just like most men are not rapists.

    What about the many women who lie about rape for trivial reasons like to avoid paying a cab fare, or because they got a ticket from the police? Here’s just one example.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2009/05/15/edmonton-cab-driver-lawsuit.html

    (group of FOUR women who accused a taxi driver of rape to avoid paying the fare, taxi camera proved it was a lie. He tried to file charges against the women, and you’d think he has a slam-dunk case, but no charges were filed)

    What about the women who lie about rape for money? (in England and other countries, rape victim get thousands from the government, but men who have their lives ruined by false rape claims get no money)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206325/Woman-rape-allegation-faces-jail.html

    What about the women who lie about rape because they are angry at their boyfriends, or angry at men in general?

    http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/3868588.Woman_who_cried_rape_was_angry_at_men/

    There are countless stories like this, they are collected on http://www.falserapesociety.blogspot.com

  39. V10 says:

    @Oh come on

    “Any men who believes that women only “cry rape” when they regret sex are men who can commit rape.”

    And this is what passes for deductive logic at Stanford, and campuses across North America…

  40. Stanford alum says:

    Any men who believes that women only “cry rape” when they regret sex are men who can commit rape.

    First of all no one says women “only cry rape” then. Rape does occur and often women cry rape because they were raped. However it’s not all rape that women make false rape accusations.

    Second, absurd logic. They’re men who’ve looked into the studies. From memory approximately 57% of false rape claims are made by women who want to cover up often including to themselves their slutty or cheating behavior, 23% want to get revenge or punish the guy she’s naming for other things (like cheating, breaking up, not follow up dating her), and 20% women who want to claim victimhood as a kind of badge of solidarity and honor in the current claimed rape culture climate feminists have created. Usually in the later case they don’t name a real alleged perp.

    However it is true that alphas w/respect to getting girls for hookup or causal sex are more likely to think women will sometimes cry rape when they regret it and feel ashamed by it. That’s because they far more often have hookup sex as opposed to only well into a relationship sex than betas are. Betas and omegas commit real forced rape far more other than alphas do. Alphas don’t have to to get casual sex, for one thing.

    You no doubt are a beta. Or maybe an omega.

  41. Stanford alum says:

    A college feminist’s morally grotesque, factually vapid, defense of the April 4 directive to lower the standard of proof in sexual assault cases

    Viviana Arcia, Stanford class of 2013 ***

    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/04/college-feminists-morally-grotesque.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheFalseRapeSociety+%28The+False+Rape+Society%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

  42. Grad Student says:

    I really hope that the people making posts wreaking of underlying misandry and radical feminism are not from Stanford (yes, this statement is just as worthless as yours. Let’s avoid derailing the conversation with b.s. semantics, baseless ad hocs, and other trollkit maneuvers).

    @Oh Come On: Actually, most sexual assaults reported at colleges do not even have to involve rape. There are more definitions of non-rape that fall under sexual assault than definitions of rape that do. What we do know is this:

    “Here are the facts at Stanford. From 2007-2009, campus sexual assault on the main campus had an annual average of approximately 11 reported sexual offenses of either a forcible or non-forcible nature. There were an average of 5.3 reported rapes during that time. Critically, the statistics do not tell us how many of those reported claims were false or unfounded. If the numbers mirror national trends, the numbers of false and unfounded claims are significant.”

    Of those 5.3 reported rapes, around 40-50% (if we apply the best-documented studies on false accusations) are false. So we are at around 2-3 claims that are either founded or unfounded.

    Forcible rape is virtually unheard of in a place like Palo Alto. Stanford is not Yale. This is not New Haven (“Hot Prowl” jokes aside).

    I don’t think anyone has published research on the number of college incidents involving alcohol and the number of incidents not involving alcohol because it’s pretty well-known that most accusations are of the dangerous frat party+alcohol+young people type.

    These situations are difficult to untangle. Given the forces on college campuses that seek to weaken and victimize women under the guise of empowering them, it wouldn’t be difficult to see how a college student could be convinced that a consensual hookup under the influence was a traumatizing experience.

    The reality is I’ve had people kiss and touch me when I’ve been under the influence and I’d rather they had not, but I realize that I made the choice to drink and could have said no (even if I was less inclined due to the alcohol). And I give the benefit of the doubt to the person that they may not have recognized how high or drunk I may have been. I recognize my regrets for what they are; I am not so confident in the ability of other people to do so. I’ve had resentment for some people that I’d say have taken advantage (perhaps knowingly or unknowingly) of my loosened mindset. I am, however, better than turning my resentment into some sort of dramatized revenge scheme, but I know of some people who I would not be surprised to see misuses a low standard of proof to exact revenge over their own regret.

  43. Human-Stupidity.com says:

    Any men who believes that women only “cry rape” when they regret sex are men who can commit rape. So I would consider seriously reexamining your beliefs if you don’t want to end up on the receiving end of one of these “false” allegations.

    Nobody got shocked about the second sentence? If I don’t change my belief, someone will take revenge on me with a false rape accusation!? You are actually proving my point!? Rape-accusation-to-silence-inconvenient-critic!?

    Now I have quoted already the scary tendency that over time more and more behaviors become “rape”. That is not my fault. That is the pervasive influence of feminism everywhere, in United Nations, European Community, everywhere where new laws are made.

    When Rape is not Rape
    http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/teenage-sexuality/when-rape-is-not-rape

    20 different kinds of rape:
    http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/social-rules-habits/manipulate-language/rape-is-rape-is-rape-is-a-lie-joe-biden-20-different-types-of-rape

    So these people created drunk-consensual-sex-rape not needing due process to prove the newly invented crime. It is not me. From ancient Greekto Latin before Christ to the 1950ies, “rape” had a clear meaning. Even now, most encyclopedias have not caught up yet with all the new meanings. I am appalled by the way our language is getting “raped”, abused, changed, in order to jail people for decades for light or non-existent transgressions.

  44. Human-Stupidity.com says:

    Rapists-proven-innocent are majority (57%) of prisoners released by Innocence Project

    http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/mens-rights-feminism/rapists-proven-innocent-are-majority-57-of-prisoners-released-by-innocence-project

  45. Saddened says:

    Reading these comments makes me so sad. I always thought that the Stanford campus was fairly progressive…I guess I was wrong. I do understand that false accusations of rape do occur. However, they are fairly rare. On the other had, one out of every four women will be/ has been sexually assaulted, and one out of every eight will be/ has been raped. It is far under-reported, especially on college campuses. It is jackasses like you that keep women who have been raped like me (Yes, it does happen at Stanford) from coming forward. Congratulations! One less man has had his life ruined by a girl who “deserved it” because she was drunk and good-looking. Hope that makes your day.

  46. Stanford alum says:

    Saddened–

    However, they are fairly rare. On the other had, one out of every four women will be/ has been sexually assaulted

    Disproven feminist lies. Read my links.

    If you’re drunk and don’t say no or try to push him away but are awake and capable of those things it’s not criminal rape, and shouldn’t be campus rape either. If you can walk and talk, even if imperfectly its not rape. If your blacked out or incapable of knowing what’s going on or saying no, then it is rape.

    If you get drunk and willing go off alone with a guy you’ve been flirting with are were attracted to, and with your inhibitions lowered by the alcohol you knowingly consumed, and you consented and participated in sex, but regretted it for any of a variety of reasons the next day or week it’s not rape.

    But now if you lie and say you clearly said no and he ignored you and raped you, the guy is toast, even if his story is as plausible as yours. The panel will figure that more girls who make rape accusations are telling the truth than lying so we’ll give her the edge, even though we’re not at all sure it’s true. So he’s expelled.

    Guilty until proven innocent is what this standard does.

    I think it’s gonna generate a whole lot more false rape allegations. What a tool anytime a woman is pissed at a guy for whatever reason and they did have sex.

  47. Grad Student says:

    @Another Viewpoint:

    Sociopathy shows up everywhere. You may say that you don’t think a woman or man at Stanford would lie about such a thing because of the social stigma (questionable given how the victim badge is a mark of pride especially for privileged Stanford kids who wish they could have their own rags-to-riches story to overcome the undeniable privilege they’ve been given). But the obvious rebuttal is that there is an even greater stigma of being accused and it’s unlikely a Stanford guy would do anything like date rape.

    The reality is that there are a few cases involving sexual assault at every college, elite and nonelite, that usually fall into a grey area. Sometimes neither person is messed up. Sometimes the guy is messed up. Sometimes, as this quote from a false accuser who sent a guy to prison for 5 years before her diary revealed that she had lied shows, the girl is messed up:

    “I can’t believe the trial’s only a week away. I feel guilty (sort of) for trying to get Nate locked up, but his lack of respect for women is terrible. I remember how disrespectful he always was to all of us girls in the courtyard . . . he thinks females are a bunch of sex objects! And he’s such a player! He was trying to get with Holly and me, and all the while he had a girlfriend. I think I pounced on Nate because he was the last straw. That, and because I’ve always seemed to need some drama in my life. Otherwise I get bored. That definitely needs to change. I’m sick of men taking advantage of me . . . and I’m sick of myself for giving in to them. I’m not a nympho like all those guys think. I’m just not strong enough to say no to them. I’m tired of being a whore. This is where it ends.

    “Yesterday morning I went to see two lawyers (partners) about a civil suit against Nate. *** I know that suing him is wrong, but what else is there for me to do? I know I’m not an evil person normally, but Nate pissed me off, and took advantage of me. Sorry for him that I’m so revengeful. I’ll probably feel guilty about this someday.”

    “Speaking of money, I’m suing Nate. I’m desperate for money! My consience (sic) wouldn’t allow me to do that before, but I’m going to do whatever I have to to get out of debt.

    Her diary continues:

    “”. . . and I’m sick of myself for giving in to them. I’m not a nympho like all those guys think. I’m just not strong enough to say no to them. I’m tired of being a whore. This is where it ends.”"

    Sources:
    Lewis v. Wilkinson, 307 F.3d 413 (6th Cir. 2002).
    Lewis v. State of Ohio, 2005 Ohio App. LEXIS 2284 (2005)
    http://www.wkyc.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=41414
    http://truthinjustice.org/nathaniel-lewis.htm

  48. You don’t have an argument says:

    I don’t think saying that justice is a product of phallogocentrism is at all a justification for lowering the standard of proof. I don’t have an opinion on the issue in general, but it should be pointed out that your argument is total bunk. That it is a product of phallogocentrism does not change anything. Plenty of things are. Saying so has no bearing on the innate qualities of the laws, only their origins. Anyway, your argument is bunk because upholding the principle of, from what I can extract, historical correction in the judiciary (giving an laxer standard of proof in court for those who have been mistreated by the justice system) is silly. Should white people have to double the standard of evidence and black people halve it? No, that’s a silly principle.

    You allege that the western conception of justice is set up against women. That’s untrue. The western conception of justice is an impartial one that requires the same standard of proof from everyone. I do understand that sexual assault is difficult to prove in court, but that doesn’t imply sexism. It’s simply an inconvenient truth and the justice system does not change its fundamental rules because a type of case is difficult to prove. That’s impartiality.

    Anyway, I’m not decided on this issue, but you have argued poorly. I mean terribly, really. I don’t think you address the fact that, though this may be an issue in which a historically oppressed group are unfairly effected, a fundamental principle of western law is being compromised.

  49. Saddened says:

    @ Stanford alum-

    Disproven misogynistic lies. Sorry I’m not sorry if I find it pointless to read statistics published by the False Rape Society. Give me a reputable, neutral source, and I might take a look. I can find plenty that support my statistics. How about you?

    In the end, I am not sure whether or not I agree with the on-campus change to preponderance of evidence. However, I find it insulting that you are insinuating that most reported rape cases are fictional, and that there is an abundance of women waiting around to accuse their ex’s of rape to ruin lives/ because they regret their choices. Most women are honest, trustworthy human being who are not seeking to “cry rape” just as most men are ALSO honest, trustworthy human being who don’t run around raping women. Rapists and women who lie about rape are in the minority, but thanks for lumping me and all the other women on this campus in with them.

    Furthermore, while I am not going to comment on the particular details of my rape, because it is frankly not your business, I will say that even, according to you, I was raped. So I would appreciate if you would stop telling me the possible situations that would be considered rape. I was raped; I am going to assume that you haven’t been, making me the expert.

    Finally, I am going to end by saying that I think you are a despicable human being, and I am ashamed that you attended this fine university. Go crawl back into your cave and die.

  50. Saddened says:

    ahem
    *human beings

  51. @Grad Student says:

    I don’t remember ever saying that all women were innocent. I said it was rare, and that there are few incentives beyond being a crazy sociopath to lie about that on this campus, the process for reporting rape is not something that’s fun to go through, it is arduous and difficult, and for actual rape victims it can be re-traumatizing, and I promise you, and all the other men who are paranoid about this, that we are not hanging around high fiving each other for getting raped. No one considers that a badge of honor, and if you actually spoke to any normal women about it that would be clear to you. Nice job assuming what its like to be a victim of sexual assault on this campus though, because you know, you apparently know exactly how that feels.

  52. Grad Student says:

    One person requested reputable sources. I noticed one poster above referenced two feminist scholars who have written on the prevalence false rape accusations, so I suggest you re-read through these posts as there were many that cited sources other than that blog (which a quick purview shows to just be a collection of quoted studies/articles with links). Here is a landmark 13-page expose archived in the New York Times entitled “Date Rape’s Other Victim” (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/13/magazine/date-rape-s-other-victim.html). Here is a study done by Cathy Young at the CATO institute about sexual assault entitled “Feminist Jurisprudence: Equal Rights or Neo-Paternalism?” (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-256.html). Here is a landmark law review article that dispels the 2% false accusation stat that get circularly cited by feminists (http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v33-issue3/greer.pdf). The legal literature cited in the original op-ed (the one which espoused the truth Peter McDonald could not handle) correctly notes that the real rate of false accusations is anyone’s guess/stat. Many studies, the McDowell and Kanin ones most prominently, put the rate of false accusations between 40-50%.

    “I don’t remember ever saying that all women were innocent.”

    I did not claim that you said this. This is what you wrote:

    “Because of the system’s design, there are very few incentives to falsely accuse someone of rape. In fact the stigma attached to being a victim of sexual violence is a common issue that many people on this campus have already cited. I don’t see what a Stanford women has to gain by falsely accusing someone of rape under our system, which is not to say that its never happened, but it is certainly not the same thing as custody cases, or domestic issues in the legal code. I just thought it would be helpful for this discussion to have some context.”

    By omission, the lingering tone of your post is that if someone makes an accusation it must be true and that no Stanford guy could be falsely accused. I responded:

    “Sociopathy shows up everywhere. You may say that you don’t think a woman or man at Stanford would lie about such a thing because of the social stigma (questionable given how the victim badge is a mark of pride especially for privileged Stanford kids who wish they could have their own rags-to-riches story to overcome the undeniable privilege they’ve been given). But the obvious rebuttal is that there is an even greater stigma of being accused and it’s unlikely a Stanford guy would do anything like date rape.

    The reality is that there are a few cases involving sexual assault at every college, elite and nonelite, that usually fall into a grey area. Sometimes neither person is messed up. Sometimes the guy is messed up. Sometimes, as this quote from a false accuser who sent a guy to prison for 5 years before her diary revealed that she had lied shows, the girl is messed up”

    You can look back at my post to see the quotes to the story.

    “No one considers that a badge of honor, and if you actually spoke to any normal women about it that would be clear to you. Nice job assuming what its like to be a victim of sexual assault on this campus though, because you know, you apparently know exactly how that feels.”

    I did not make any assumptions about what it is like to be a “victim of sexual assault” on this campus. I am merely pointing out that your claims of how rough the process is follows the same rhetoric of critiques of the justice system in the 1970s when the process really was arduous. The reality is that the process is setup to be run by the person making the accusation. They are referred to as the “victim” immediately and the person they accused is arrested immediately (unless there is clear evidence that the accusation is unfounded or false). In the case of stranger rape accusations, there have been falsely accused men who were held in prison for months or years. Mr. Lewis, from the case I cited earlier was in prison for five years until the girl’s diary was discovered. The falsely accused are often given embarrassing rectal examinations; the next case I cite is a guy who was in jail until the accuser admitted she didn’t even know the guy (http://www.sulphurdailynews.com/news/x294023819/Alleged-MSU-rape-victim-admits-to-lying). One of the leading incentives that college age women who have made false rape accusations have cited for doing so is the obtainment of the victim card (Kanin, E. J “False rape allegations” from Archives of Sexual Behavior, 23(1), 81-92).

    The reality, as acknowledged in countless courtrooms and police press reports, is that true victims of rape are hurt greatly by false accusations. That is why it is important to have a system that roots out the false accusers. Having a reasonable standard of proof will not scare away true victims if the reasons cited by RAINN on underreporting are any indicator. The reason for underreporting has to do more with a person not wanting family or friends to know.

    I’ve had two friends who are victims of childhood sexual abuse, one male and one female (I encouraged both to report to the police even though the incidents were years ago, one was not aware that there were extensions for the statutes of limitation). I also had one female friend who claimed to have been sexually assaulted and then later told someone else that she made the story up (she brought up the claim when she acted meanly to both of us). I’ve had one male friend be threatened with a false rape accusation when he wanted to break off a relationship. I also know of one male friend who was the victim of a false rape accusation. Although his friends stood by him, he faced a lot of negative judgment from acquaintances even after the police dismissed the accusation as unfounded. Even the falsely accused who have the luck of their accuser admitting to lying still carry a stigma with them for the rest of their life. Rapists are the scapegoat and the de facto worst bad guy, to even be falsely associated with them is one of the worst fates that can befall a man.

    I only bring this more personal stuff up in response to the nasty ad hominems (if a misogynist is someone who defends individual rights and the truth, then I am proud to be called one however). This conversation need not be personal though. Our personal stories are only so accessible to strangers. I encourage you look over the research and articles cited by myself and other posters. I empathize with both real victims of rape and real victims of false rape accusations. I’d encourage you to read up on the experiences of the falsely accused (particularly those who have been beaten or killed -> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11108/1140185-100.stm?cmpid=latest.xml&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    I also encourage you to read about how the “preponderance of evidence” standard is famous for leading to bad results for the innocent in civil courts -> btw this article is by a feminist (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/liz-mandarano/the-worst-thing-a-woman-c_b_837636.html).

  53. Stanford alum says:

    Saddened–

    Give me a reputable, neutral source, and I might take a look. I can find plenty that support my statistics. How about you?

    You mean like all the feminist social science studies?

    The false rape society guy is a former prosecutor and does nothing but fact filled blogging posts, very well supported.

    You’re an evident ideologue.

    Feminists have a long and huge history of lying to advance their agenda. Like “the most dangerous day of the year for women with husbands or boyfriends is super bowl Sunday.” Let pass for years by the feminist heavily saturated MSM without investigation. Turned out to be a total NOW fabrication. Similarly research reports by a Harvard feminist behind greatly upping the percentage of pretax assessed child support=also stealth alimony by federal mandate in the late 80s, early 90s. She claims her stats about female poverty in divorce compared to their husband were an error. Uhhh, no. Lie.

  54. Stanford alum says:

    A Stanford woman makes a date rape accusation today, thus a Stanford man will be ajudicated guilty until proven innocent????

    Where the hell is the Stanford Law School on this???????

    This is deeply shameful for any principled lawyer, who’s not a cultural Marxist. (Look it up.)

  55. Stanford alum says:

    Misogynistic = anti-feminist, according to feminists.

    Feminists /= women.

  56. Stanford alum says:

    Disliking much of current feminism /= disliking women.

  57. @Grad Student says:

    For the one hundred and fiftieth time: NO ONE IS BEING ARRESTED OR GOING TO JAIL. This is for discipline hearings that are handled internally and do not result in anyone going to jail. And the chances of being expelled even for, in the immortal words of Whoopi Goldberg, “rape-rape” are pretty low.

  58. @Grad Student and others says:

    And I really don’t appreciate your insinuations that I am supporting false-rape allegations as some sort of evil feminist. I have never called you sexist. I said you seemed to be ignorant and unempathetic towards your female classmates by downplaying how difficult the process is. And since you brought the personal into this, I should let you know that I was a victim of severe childhood sexual abuse and my little sister was raped a few years ago by a friend. Because she has Asbergers and had been tricked into consuming alcohol the police decided that she was a “unreliable” witness and didn’t prosecute despite copious amounts of physical evidence. So, you know, I do know VERY VERY well what the legal process is like, and the truth of the matter is that no matter how nice the cops, the da or any other part of the process is handled it haunts you for the rest of your life, is retraumatizing and painfully difficult. Until you’ve had to watch your own little sister be told that she was not going to get any justice because she made bad choices that she was in no position to make on multiple accounts, I suggest you refrain from lecturing me on what the process is like.

    Now, I realize that the situation at Stanford is fundamentally different then what we are talking about here, but on a deeply personal level I take serious issue with the many other commentators who come on here and tell Stanford women that they are all evil feminists hell-bent on destroying men because the system was changed to reflect standard operating procedures on other campuses, in which the most serious punishment for rape involves expulsion, and is very unlikely to actually result in expulsion. I’ve been disgusted by the whole tone of debate on this article, and I wasn’t going to say anything anymore because so many commentators had to go and have apparent issues with reading comprehension, and I decided it wasn’t work emotionally screwing up my day to respond, but since you decided to be all “personal” about it you left me with no choice.

    There have been horrifically evil things done by very bad women that resulted in bad situations for both the men who were accused, and for the women who are actual victims of rape. But you know what, there has also been a lot of evil committed by men who have horrific done things to women. Rape is a serious issue requiring a delicate balance of justice, fairness and protection for the people involved. Its ugly. Its horrible, and no one wants it to happen, but it does. And some women lie about it, but no one is patting them on the back for it. There is no culture of rape among any group of women I know, just as there is no culture of rape among men. Its bad people doing horrible things to people who are weak and can’t defend themselves, and in either case we have a responsibility to balance our legal requirements with defending those people. I never said that changing the standard to preponderance of evidence was the answer, I argued with the other egregious claims about how women felt about rape, and how rape was treated by “feminists.” The commentary on this article has been unbecoming and embarrassing to me as a member of the Stanford community, so I hope we are all proud of ourselves.

  59. Grad Student says:

    Actually the standard used by most colleges before this push from the federal government was “clear and convincing.” Most Universities did not even have a process set up for handling these types of cases until Title IX was reinterpreted to apply to cases of people having sex. Operating procedures have been federally mandated or been just as good mandated through a system of threatening to pull federal funding/subsidies. Some colleges have even been known to artificially boost their sexual assault numbers in order to get more $$$ (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/10/02/davis)

    I am really sorry to hear about your personal hurt. I actually agree with a lot of the things you said in your last comment. The criminal justice system is a rough one to go through on either end.

    I think the general strong response from guys, especially guys who’ve had a regret-type accusation thrown at them, is that few people acknowledge that someone who is innocent might just be severely damaged by an accusation while everyone acknowledges how bad rape is for the victim right off the bat. Many of the comments and this article seem to presume that the guys who are falsely accused were “asking for it” anyway by having a one night stand. While a guy accused of this at Stanford may not go to prison, if he is innocent, it is the stigma that will truly sting him. For some people, Stanford (or their University) is like home and the idea of getting a guilty verdict is a really big deal. If they are in student debt, from a poor family, etc, then things are even worse. There have been a lot of big cases since Duke about guys getting falsely accused or being in grey area cases and being left hung out to dry by the University.

    As for feminism, the most outspoken feminists say that false accusations are not a problem and cite a made up 2% statistic. Many also continue to cite bloated 1-in-x stats that get proven erroneous time and time again. I actually think it does a lot of damage to victims of rape, because I think the extent to which some prominent feminists (just look back at the whole Duke and Hofstra fiascos) have politicized the issue is part of the reason why the word “rape” has lost its meaning for those who use the word in a joking context. The feminists who acknowledge that there are male victims of sexual assault; male and female victims of false accusations; and that the Universities ought not to be handling complicated he said-she said alcohol-infused sex cases are few in number. A lot of feminist studies classes propose theories on human civilization that scapegoat men and masculinity for all of society’s problems, so it’s hard to fault the comments that attribute this messed up system to feminism. That being said, not one comment attributed this to feminist women. In the same way SSQL does not reflect the gay community, feminism should not in any way reflect the women’s community. I know Stanford women who quietly have expressed their distrust of some of these pushes. Young men will do anything to seek the approval of young women and are much more likely to wrongfully condemn someone who is accused. Feminism is not something I associate with women even though a lot of women claim to be feminists (many of them do this on the basis of believing in equal opportunity for the genders which is no longer what feminism is about), I associate it with a radical fringe group of people being manipulated by a sexual grievance industry and men&women who want easy public sector jobs. Just look at the quotes from prominent feminists on how guys falsely accused had it coming and deserved the wakeup call, and you’ll see why some guys and women get angry.

    The reality is that the modern University is driven by lawyers. Right now the threat of lawsuits and public humiliation is stronger from organizations that seek justice for those bringing the accusation, so Universities have created a process where there is little support for the accused/defendant (especially at Stanford; if you know anyone whose had to go through as a defendant…well, you’d be furious). Some Universities may not expel students though because of instances such as Duke where their overzealousness to go Scottsboro Boys on the boys has backfired.

    There’s a recent case at Brown where a girl who brought an accusation and a University administrator took a bribe in exchange for testifying against the guy (http://www.browndailyherald.com/mobile/emails-underline-rape-procedures-flaws-1.2553629). Recently the first case I’ve seen of someone being falsely accused of making a false rape accusation. The criminal justice system which is backed by professionals and billions of dollars still gets these things wrong. I am pretty sure the University gets stuff wrong every time.

    In the case of forcible rape, the person should be expelled from campus if the evidence is clear and convincing. In cases of he said–she said, well, I just don’t expect college students, let alone University administrators, to have the resources and background to be able to handle such cases.

    This is not a man vs. woman issue (especially since there are many male victims of sexual assault). To me it’s sensible people that believe in not having a big brother University vs. those who want to take away responsibility from students and dictate their lives. There are many rape victims and victims of false rape accusations who propose the same things -> read about a rape victim married to a man falsely accused http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5358268.stm

    Most feminists, mind you, speak out against anonymity for the accused and are against them being given representation or support. It should be noted that neither the accused nor the accuser can have a person represent them in the Stanford system (on the basis that poor students wouldn’t have access to public defenders). This stuff really should just be handled by the police. And yes, in some cases, you’ll really have to push the DA if you want things done.

  60. @grad student says:

    Did I miss the part in all of your previous comments that this should not be handled internally, because frankly, I didn’t realize that was the conversation we were having and I am sure you can see why I didn’t think so. I think everyone agrees that rape shouldn’t be handled internally within a university, it should be handled by the police, if you had said that 50 comments ago you would have had a much friendlier response.

  61. @grad student says:

    Also, did you read my post at all? Will you please stop lecturing me? I get that you are angry but you really seem to be not reading what I’ve written. Empathy, is critical for everyone, and I am sick of the shouting. I think its actually really funny that you are lecturing me on how men feel about this (I called the women making false accusations evil, I was a victim of childhood sexual abuse, how much more on men’s side do you want me to be?) and yet you seem to be completely incapable of expressing any understanding of me. Or of the angry women you are so mad at. I think that some feminists have taken things to far, and I am one of those Stanford women that have substantive issues with the direction of liberal, elite educated, upper class feminism, but there are legitimate issues that are being discussed that don’t make this black and white. I am asking for balance and empathy. Of course men are sexually assaulted too, and its important that we deal with that issue. I’m in favor of talking about this as a sexual assault gender neutral problem, but the whole tenor of this debate, which you have contributed to, has made this a women v. men which is just basically a huge waste of time. I already feel empathy towards the men we are talking about. I already said that I am not sure preponderance of evidence may not be the answer. Please stop telling me how I feel, and try for a minute to understand where I am coming from.

  62. @grad student says:

    Should a rape victim really have to push the DA to prosecute, when there is physical evidence? Especially one who is a minor?

  63. Grad student says:

    In the instance you mention, the DA’s response seems egregious. If there’s physical evidence and the person is someone who cannot legally consent by 3 different standards for consent, then it ought to be a simple case.

    I am not surprised though. I am familiar with the fact that children are known to make poor witnesses (inconsistent, can be fed answers, etc), so it makes such cases difficult. I’ve also read about parents who have had their children taken away because a remark made by a child with a condition was misinterpreted by a teacher or social worker.

    I think the case you reference would have had a better shot at going forward if our legal system were not burdened by drug crimes, lawsuits over hot cups of coffee, and grey area sex cases. The unfortunate reality is that the system is overbooked and some of the worst crimes never see their day in court as a result. It’s a really bad thing that happened. And this is a cliche answer, but I think if we reprioritized (spent less money on overseas wars and enforcing speeding tickets) then we’d have more resources to tackle pressing issues at home that don’t get the attention they deserve. And I think that people on the autism spectrum have a far greater uphill battle than your average man or woman that is not understood well by most people (including myself).

    You are right, it does not appear that anyone in this long thread explicitly mentioned that they do not think the University should be handling such cases. That is something I believe but did not make clear. And I thank you for showing empathy for the feelings and concerns I’ve expressed.

    I mistakenly attributed your first comment with the sort of “liberal, elite educated, upper class feminism” that I normally encounter. Sorry.

    “I’m in favor of talking about this as a sexual assault gender neutral problem, but the whole tenor of this debate, which you have contributed to, has made this a women v. men which is just basically a huge waste of time. ”

    I agree that it would be a better discussion if it were gender neutral. It wasn’t my intention to make this a women v. men thing and I don’t think that this debate is a women v. men thing.

  64. some dude says:

    “…But none of that matters because “INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.” I’m pretty sure the people who developed that concept never had to worry about being the victim of sexual assault…”

    I had to stop reading here. This writer is clearly writing only on the behalf of one disadvantaged group (here, college-aged women trying to prove that they were raped), while there are MANY MANY MANY other groups who use this fundamental American clause as a lifeline – without it they would be fucked – there’s no other way of putting it. None of us have any idea of the horrors of prison, especially when one is innocent.

  65. some dude says:

    Also I’ve been raped before. Can’t say it’s even close to as bad as getting expelled. imjustsayin’

  66. @grad student says:

    Thanks for your very reasonable response.

  67. info says:

    An example of male survivor of rape: taken from http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counselloradvice9907.html

    Richard was raped by three men when he was 21. Ten years later he was still suffering from PTSD. Richard suffered from flashbacks lasting up to one hour seven times a day where it felt as if he was being raped again. He avoided visiting public houses and lavatories, groups of men, and would not read newspapers in case there were any sexual crimes reported. Richard had compulsive rituals of bathing, scrubbing his anal region and hand washing up to 20 times a day. He avoided eating full meals to avoid defecating and would induce vomit after eating. He was depressed and had also developed an alcohol problem. The management of PTSD has focused on reducing depression and suicide risk by medication and cognitive-behavioural therapy. So far this is an area of management that is dependant on experience with treating female survivors. However the differences between male and female responses to rape may warrant a modified approach when dealing with male victims. Several specific factors distinguish the recovery efforts of male survivors from those of their female counterparts. These factors are all related to the way in which males are socialised to be different from females, and they create a gigantic web that entangles, and frequently traps, male survivors (Struve 1990 p36)
    The support services for the male survivors of rape are very limited and have received little attention. There is a vicious circle whereby men do not report because of the lack of facilities available to them and the stigmatisation of male rape. As a result of under-reporting the issue of male rape does not attract the level of attention that it deserves and this in turn makes it difficult to acquire resources. It is a shame that the centres provided to assist female victims of rape are often reluctant to offer advice or the basic courtesy of listening to male victims in crisis, primarily due to a lack of training and awareness.

  68. PaulQ says:

    when you punish an innocent man,you mainly destroy any trust in Justice and one will have to wonder who is really a criminal and who is just an innocent punished for nothing.
    the other problem is not punishing the false accuser,not at all or applying another standard to proof false accusation.
    last point,statistics shows that women also would coerce men into having sex with them,or take advantage of a drunk man,why having this double standards.

  69. info says:

    Funny thing- Peter McDonald lived in Roble dorm at Stanford during his freshman year ’07-’08. He was accused of making making an alcohol-related unwanted sexual advance on a fellow resident that year. The girl reported the incident, but ultimately agreed to not press charges as long as he moved out of the building.

    In Peter’s case, there would have been a “preponderance of evidence” for any type of sexual attack the woman wished to claim. Fortunately for Peter, this woman was very understanding and mostly interested in seeing that he moved out of the residence. This is not always the case, particularly in relationships where there is more emotion involved.

    I don’t think Peter was guilty of a “sexual assault” as most people would define it, but Peter was 100% guilty of not treating this woman with the respect that she deserved. In his case, the punishment fit the crime. He learned his lesson. He was not expelled for it, so why is he advocating that others should be?

JOIN THE CONVERSATION - LEAVE A REPLY


Comments are moderated and will be posted if they are on-topic and not abusive. Please do not be alarmed if your comment does not show up immediately. We will get it posted soon.